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story category Was FiOS a Good Idea?
Duh. $23 billion worth of future proof
08:41AM Tuesday Aug 19 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: Fiber · competition · business · bandwidth · Verizon FIOS · Verizon Online DSL
The New York Times this morning offers up an article exploring whether Verizon's $23 billion investment in running fiber to the home was the right thing to do. The majority say yes; particularly swayed have been investors, some of whom thought the project was "doomed" early on, but have changed their tune as they actually begin to understand the future competitive ramifications. Apparently, even crazy homeless people like the technology:
Click for full size
The service has been particularly popular among the more sophisticated customers attracted by higher Internet speeds, said Karl Bode, the editor of BroadbandReports.com. "Deliver quality technology and cutting-edge speed, and customers respond," he said. "I’m preparing to move into a new home, and FiOS availability actually played a part in where I was willing to move. And I’ve probably been one of Verizon’s most outspoken critics over the years."
Before we get all weepy in adoration, we've well documented that if FiOS continues to have a weak spot, it's billing errors and support issues. Still, there's really no doubt at this point that Verizon is going to be in a better broadband competitive position down the line than either AT&T or Qwest, both of whom have decided to milk copper.

Still, Verizon's plan still has its opponents on Wall Street. In the Times piece Craig Moffett, a well quoted Wall Street analyst who on any given day can usually be found pushing cable stocks and cable industry viewpoints, once again trots out his argument that investing in fiber is a bad idea. Moffett continues to suggest that the company will be (contrary to other analysts) six billion in the hole when it's all said and done:
"If I were an auto dealer and I wanted to give people a Maserati for the price of a Volkswagen, I’d have some seriously happy customers," said Craig Moffett, an analyst with Sanford C. Bernstein. "My problem would be whether I could earn a decent return doing it."
Despite consternation from impatient investors, upgrading your network is a no brainer for a broadband company. Looking at wireless revenues and the profit margins made on things like SMS and other services, you'd be hard pressed to suggest that Verizon doesn't have the cash to protect itself with a little forward-thinking vision. Increasingly cheaper gear and advancements like Corning's bendable fiber is also allowing Verizon to only just now focus on apartment dwellers and increase ROI.

One question that might still need answering is whether, in ten years, it was a great idea for telcos to get into the traditional TV business during the advent of broadband video. Early signs say yes as the telcos scrap with cable for triple play customers, but then again, online video isn't much of a threat to traditional broadcast television just yet.

Related:
  1. Symmetrical FiOS Will Hit More Markets Monday
  2. Symmetrical FiOS Hits More Markets
  3. Symmetrical FiOS Expansion Official
  4. AT&T, Verizon Get Their GPON On
  5. Verizon Says They're Embracing P2P
  6. Verizon In No Rush To Go Pure IPTV
  7. 50Mbps, 20/20Mbps FiOS Tiers Hit All Markets
  8. Verizon Has No Plans To Cap, Throttle
Forums » Was FiOS a Good Idea?
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qazwsx2
yawn
Premium
join:2005-12-30
Tempe, AZ

that if what?

Before we get all weepy in adoration, we've well documented that if FiOS continues to have a weak spot, it's billing errors and support issues.
Oregonian2

join:2008-07-16
Beaverton, OR
·Verizon FIOS
·SpiritOne / Aracne..

Re: that if what?

said by qazwsx2 See Profile :

Before we get all weepy in adoration, we've well documented that if FiOS continues to have a weak spot, it's billing errors and support issues.
Is that a weakness of FiOS or that of Verizon? I say that because Verizon is a major player DSL (FiOS competitor) provider as well.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

said by qazwsx2 See Profile :

Before we get all weepy in adoration, we've well documented that if FiOS continues to have a weak spot, it's billing errors and support issues.
Don't forget limited availability.
--
When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
·Verizon FIOS


edit:
August 19th, @08:49AM

Who?

quote:
The service has been particularly popular among the more sophisticated customers attracted by higher Internet speeds, said Karl Bode, the editor of BroadbandReports.com. "Deliver quality technology and cutting-edge speed, and customers respond," he said. "I’m preparing to move into a new home, and FiOS availability actually played a part in where I was willing to move. And I’ve probably been one of Verizon’s most outspoken critics over the years."
Who's this Karl Bode guy? Never heard of him. He doesn't seem to have a Wiki page so obviously he really is a homeless nobody. Typical NYT reporting...just get any random person to make up a quote and it's front page news.

ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Duluth, GA

Re: Who?

So when they say fiber to the curb, they mean it.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Re: Who?

FTTC = Fiber To The Cardboard (Box)
firewire9999

join:2004-07-11
Livonia, MI

Re: Who?

FTTSC = Fiber To The Shopping Cart

djrobx

join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
FTTH - Fiber To The Homeless

kamm

join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY

edit:
August 23rd, @11:41PM

Re: Who?

HTTP = Homeless to the premises!

freeze
Magic Murder Bag
Premium
join:2001-05-13
Columbus, OH
·RoadRunner Cable

said by cdru See Profile :

quote:
The service has been particularly popular among the more sophisticated customers attracted by higher Internet speeds, said Karl Bode, the editor of BroadbandReports.com. "Deliver quality technology and cutting-edge speed, and customers respond," he said. "I’m preparing to move into a new home, and FiOS availability actually played a part in where I was willing to move. And I’ve probably been one of Verizon’s most outspoken critics over the years."
Who's this Karl Bode guy? Never heard of him. He doesn't seem to have a Wiki page so obviously he really is a homeless nobody. Typical NYT reporting...just get any random person to make up a quote and it's front page news.
BroadbandReports? Sounds like a DSLReports knock-off!

jt4

@comcast.net

Re: Who?

broadbandreports is another name for this website. look at the top left corner of the page it says broadband dsl reports.com aka broadband reports. if you google broadband report you get this site. i hate stupid people

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Re: Who?

said by jt4 :

i hate stupid people
I don't like people who can't understand the concept of sarcasm or humor.
mobbo

join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX
You. Are. Dumb.

antwanp
ObamaBiden 2008 I voted, did you?
Premium
join:2002-05-14
Cedar Hill, TX
clubs:
Just a dummy... I want to blacken jt4's eye with my fist.

freeze
Magic Murder Bag
Premium
join:2001-05-13
Columbus, OH
·RoadRunner Cable


edit:
August 22nd, @06:42AM

said by jt4 :

broadbandreports is another name for this website. look at the top left corner of the page it says broadband dsl reports.com aka broadband reports. if you google broadband report you get this site. i hate stupid people
For future reference, the (wink) is a generally accepted indicator of sarcasm on the internet.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK


LOL

N3OGH
Will it all be Obama's fault now?
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL

CLEARLY a manufactured story, along with a manufactured "expert" to quote.

Is it me, or does that pizza box look to be just about the right size to rack mount???
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…

jt4

@comcast.net
Karl Bode is the editor of BroadbandReports.com. sound like you have a short term memory because they tell you who he is.

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Who?

said by jt4 :

Karl Bode is the editor of BroadbandReports.com. sound like you have a short term memory because they tell you who he is.
Thanks for pointing that out. Here after 5 years and 7500 posts I had no idea.

N3OGH
Will it all be Obama's fault now?
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Who?

LOL

I've only got approx 3500 posts, so you've got me beat.

Some people have no concept of sarcasm & satire.

Oh well, it was worth a try....
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…
riblet2000

join:2006-03-08
Naples, FL

Re: Who?

The bigger issue here is Karl quoting himself via the NYT. Pretty lame "journalism". More like self-promotion and a huge ego.

But who cares, right?

MadMANN
Premium
join:2005-08-19
·Comcast

Re: Who?

said by riblet2000 See Profile :

The bigger issue here is Karl quoting himself via the NYT. Pretty lame "journalism". More like self-promotion and a huge ego.

I thought the same thing. Can you imagine a newscaster on Fox News trying to sell a story, and then cut away to a video clip of the same newscaster interviewing himself for the story? Ridiculous. But that's the kind of news we have come to know and love here.

"The news on DSLR has been known to be very opinionated and biased with few facts to back up their stories. There is no real journalistic value or earned credibility there," says MadMANN, a regular poster on BBR/DSLR.com. "I have learned to treat their news as the Enquirer of tech world news."
birdfeedr
Premium
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
·Verizon FIOS

said by cdru See Profile :

Here after 5 years and 7500 posts I had no idea.
What? You can still get a total post count? Mine's 791 in the last 365 days, but what about way back?

Forget it. Post count means nothing. Post content is everything.

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

edit:
August 19th, @07:11PM

Re: Who?

Edited: Post was suppose to be an IM.

N3OGH
Will it all be Obama's fault now?
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL

I just clicked on my name in the forum..

N3OGH
Avatar:
Fri Aug 3 14:27:00 2007
Joined: 2003-11-11
(5th year!)
email: Not public.
Membership: Premium
Location: Philly burbs
On these maps: ·Members Tech
·FiOS coming soon

Reviews: ·Verizon Online DSL

Posts: 3025
Last seen: 2008-08-19 16:34:56
Visits: 1383

Sometimes, life is just that easy...
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…
birdfeedr
Premium
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Who?

said by N3OGH See Profile :

I just clicked on my name in the forum..
Like pushing the Staples EASY button... Thanks!

I can't say I feel like an idiot, I just never focused on it. So I started looking at all the other things I've been ignoring. Hey! Wha d'ya know!

N3OGH
Will it all be Obama's fault now?
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Who?

As always, my pleasure sir.

No need to even remotely feel idiotic, we've all been in that seat.

Truth is, I just got lucky and clicked the right place
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…
RchrdEllis

join:2007-06-11
Narberth, PA
·Verizon Online DSL

Karl is not just an editor, he is the founder and editor of this site. I appreciate all the discussions he has enabled through the years. Even though I appear to be a recent user of this site, I was significantly involved with this site in it's formative years. I lost my original ID and privileges when due to financial needs I was forced to drop out of all internet access. It was a painful period for me.

He has run a site that has significantly been able to follow the events that have shaped high-speed access to the internet and all the ancillary services.

I had nowhere near the posts that he has had. He has continued to be able to actively maintain contact with the industry.

Let us all commend Karl for his diligent efforts in allowing us to understand and maintain our high-speed internet connections
- Richard Ellis

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
·Verizon FIOS


edit:
August 19th, @07:24PM

Re: Who?

Perhaps you should be thanking justin See Profile, owner and operator of the site (scroll to the bottom of the linked page).

Karl is one of 3 staff members and the news editor among other things. I think a founder likely would have a join date a little closer to the beginning of the site as well as a lower UID instead of 141383. But none the less Karl does do a good job.

jacksonator1

join:2007-12-21
canada
He is the editor of this web site. I f you enjoy the content of this site atall then the editor is a somebody.This site is the Broadband bible.Some of this sites tweaking tools are worth their weight in gold alone.

wdoa

join:2001-10-16
Spencer, MA
·Verizon Online DSL

another big weakness

"Before we get all weepy in adoration, we've well documented that if FiOS continues to have a weak spot, it's billing errors and support issues."
That and the fact that only a small percentage of the country will ever see FIOS, I'm in Central Massachusetts and there are apparently no plans by Verizon to roll FIOS past for the most part what has been the relatively upscale communities around Rt 128 and 495..

See 13 replies to this post

Dogfather
Altitude is your friend
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FIOS
·MegaPath
·Cox VOIP
·Verizon west (ex G..
·ViaTalk
·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable


edit:
August 19th, @09:05AM

Billing problems, too true

I have FiOS and while the service works fine, the records for my service address were so screwed up the only solution for Verizon was to cancel all services and reorder which I'm in the middle of doing right now. It's an ongoing nightmare.

So long as the install and billing get set up correctly the first time, you're good to go. But God forbid something go south because it's next to impossible to fix easily.

One user here spent 3 months and over 70 hours on the phone with support trying to get issues fixed. And after 12 missed appointments it finally was and the subscriber is happy.

I haven't spent nearly that much time on the phone, but over the last year, I've called at least a dozen times trying to get these issues corrected before finally using the nuclear option.
flashcore

join:2007-01-23
Lutherville Timonium, MD


edit:
August 19th, @09:35AM

Re: Billing problems, too true

I have the 3 months beat, I am well into month 5 of trying to move to the triple play bundle with no end in sight yet.

I started back in April tring to renew my contract for 2 years only to have my account in a state of FUBAR. I am now paying close to $250 a month when I was paying ~ $200 a month before I started this mess, new packages mysteriously have been added to my account even when I never requested them and no one can seem to remove them or credit me for them at this point, no one seems to have a clue how to switch my long distance from ATT to Verizon which has caused several orders to become stuck in there worthless computer systems. For a company that started out in the PHONE business they can not even do something as simple as switching my long distance carrier. What more can you really expect from a company cant even assist people with problems relating to there core business functions.

I have given up trying to deal with the clueless phone jockeys at the FSC, they really need more training and there needs to be more levels that people that we can speak to when there issues are too complex to be resolved be someone who has limited access to fix anything other then resetting your ONT or STB's, right now Gustavo in the Verizon Direct forums is trying to straiten the mess out that there systems have caused, so far he is the only one who has been able to make any headway in trying to resolve these issues but there is still a long way to go, its truly sad that for such a great product with great potential they restrict there support people from the systems for which they need access to resolve issues correctly on the first try without needing your request sent to a "Network Techs" with who you can not even speak to and who tend to cause more problems then they solve due to miss-communication from the FSC phone jockeys.

Tech

@suddenlink.net

Time will tell

There is always a risk in new technology to being first in, as well as a risk to taking a wait and see attitude, being last or just too late all together.

Which strategy was best? Only time will tell.


bobc2112

join:2004-01-04
Middletown, NJ

Crazy Homeless?

Karl,

Knew you were crazy, but didn't realize you were homeless!

Nice Quote though!

punker
deleted by moderator
Premium
join:2004-06-21
Palmdale, CA
clubs:
·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable


edit:
August 19th, @11:57AM

Re: Crazy Homeless?

said by bobc2112 See Profile :

Karl,

Knew you were crazy, but didn't realize you were homeless!

Nice Quote though!
»An 802.11 Homeless connection

fatmanskinny
Premium
join:2004-01-04
Atlanta, GA
·Comcast Digital Vo..
·Comcast
·EarthLink

Sooooo.....when is Verizon taking over AT&T.....

and implementing FIOS in AT&T land? That's the question I would like to have an answer to.
--
Addicted to Broadband Reports.

Neyland85

join:2003-02-04
North Augusta, SC

Re: Sooooo.....when is Verizon taking over AT&T.....

AMEN!
irsean

join:2001-05-10
Redlands, CA
Probably never. That was the whole idea of breaking up Ma Bell. You have to wait for AT&T's U-verse.

joe01880

join:2007-10-26
Wakefield, MA

Re: Sooooo.....when is Verizon taking over AT&T.....

not soon enough
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

the corporate American way

“If I were an auto dealer and I wanted to give people a Maserati for the price of a Volkswagen, I’d have some seriously happy customers,” said Craig Moffett, an analyst with Sanford C. Bernstein. “My problem would be whether I could earn a decent return doing it.”

The other incumbents like it much better to give their customers a volkswagon for the price of a maserati. That's the corporate American way.

They just can't understand why a company would spend more money than necessary when they can get away with charging high prices for crappy service and products.

the bozo quoted above doesn't realize customers would be very happy if they were getting a volkswagon for the price of a volkswagon.
majortom1029

join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY

Re: the corporate American way

Then what would cablevision be? Getting a corvette for the price of a corolla?

JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs:
Any word on when you'll get your Maserati, nasadude See Profile? Have you seen any activity in your 'hood?
irsean

join:2001-05-10
Redlands, CA
·Verizon FIOS


edit:
August 19th, @03:35PM

It really is a bad example. You aren't getting a Maserati for the price of Volkswagen. With DSL, you were getting a VW at the price of a Maserati. We are building a network that doesn't have the upkeep price that copper does. So instead of spending what we do on copper per annum, we are able to use the money to build out our infrastructure. While it was a bit rocky at first, I think we have a good foothold and you will be seeing more rollout sooner.
I'll be the first to admit we have serious glitches in our billing and support but, it would seem to be more of a "growing pains" issue.

JSY

join:2000-04-05
Elmhurst, NY
clubs:

Seriously...

Do any of you actually think that FiOS support, no matter how good it may be now, will remain at this level as more people get FiOS? What in Verizon's history gives you any indication that sustained high level of support is possible with Verizon. Given enough time for them to expand, they'll be just as bad as TWC when they start placing unqualified people in positions to meet the demand. When it comes to customer support, the customer will get shafted, beit Verizon or TWC.

See 8 replies to this post
benc
Premium
join:2007-06-17
Glen Carbon, IL
·Charter Pipeline
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Callcentric
·AT&T Midwest

Of course it's a good idea

I might be biased, since like many here I'm a bandwidth starved geek.

But to be more objective, I think it puts Verizon in a better situation to handle the future.

I live in AT&T land, and they're just shooting themselves in the foot.

The only reason AT&T has been getting any money from me at all is because of POTS, which I maintain despite cheaper "alternatives" because of reliability and line power. If they ever ditch POTS then they'll lose me and others like me.

I may change my tune if they get FTTP here, but what are the odds of that within the next five, even ten years?

If I use DSL, to get the speeds I want I'd have to order TWO DSL lines and use a Dual WAN situation.

Neyland85

join:2003-02-04
North Augusta, SC

Re: Of course it's a good idea

The bad thing about it is by shooting themselves in the foot you get to suffer too by living in an area they alone are the teleco for. You don't get to choose FIOS.
irsean

join:2001-05-10
Redlands, CA

Re: Of course it's a good idea

I don't consider my superior Internet, uncompressed and content laden video or my crystal clear unlimited long distance service to be a "shot in the foot".

Neyland85

join:2003-02-04
North Augusta, SC
·AT&T Southeast

Re: Of course it's a good idea

Compared to FIOS your slow internet, basic video with limited multi HD feeds due to limited bandwidth and the same VOIP offered by a local cable company, yea... I'd call that a shot in the foot. I'd LOVE the ability to really choose between FIOS, U-Verse, Cable, Sat.

bigxl31

join:2001-11-01
Englishtown, NJ

fios

i hug my fios modem every night ! =D

JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs:
·LINGO
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·surpasshosting
·Verizon FIOS

Re: fios

LOL! Me too, only it's not a modem. I hug the router, I hug the ONT. I even thought about hugging the installer.


But on second thought, I convinced him to hand over his "FiOS is installed here" sign instead.

* hugs the sign *

!!! FiOS is a WONDERFUL service !!!
cybercrimes

join:2003-12-24
Phoenixville, PA
you like the outdoors
voipguy

join:2006-05-31
Forest Hills, NY

Missing the Point

FiOS was sold to investors as not only a way to "future-proof" the network, but as a way to save money on maintenance.

In theory, the copper plant would be retired, and so would (nearly) all the technicians that maintained it.

Verizon has yet to turn-down copper, even in a single neighborhood, to see if this theory works.

ssmd

@usda.gov

Re: Missing the Point

They are doing it in our neighborhood (Silver Spring, MD). They even sent a rep to inform us they were going to run fiber to our house, apparently not realizing that we already had it.
Oregonian2

join:2008-07-16
Beaverton, OR
·Verizon FIOS
·SpiritOne / Aracne..

said by voipguy See Profile :

Verizon has yet to turn-down copper, even in a single neighborhood, to see if this theory works.
Possibly true, but I doubt they've done much maintenance on copper runs that aren't being used anymore -- and one's decommissioned copper probably provides additional alternate swapping pairs for those still being maintained in a common run. Still pumping air through the system to keep water out though. They do that for fiber?
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY

premium bundle

The FIOS product lineup still need much improvement. VOIP, instead of POTS should be an option. Symmetric speed & pricing should be the same across all markets. Prices should also reflect local market competition (meaning you can get a better deal if the cable company has one for similar products). Just because FIOS internet is somewhat more robust than a cablemodem doesn't mean you can necessarily charge more.

Verizon did many things to stunt the growth of FIOS.
1. Refused initially to compete on a bottom line price (begging to happen, Q4, 2007)
2. Offer little to no bundling price reductions & implement disconnect fees, surcharges & bogus cost of doing business.
3. Not offer a VOIP product as part of a FIOS bundle.
4. Drag out franchise negotiations with major cities such as NYC and push lobbying dollars at the federal level to make trouble for the cable companies (primarily Comcast 30% ownership of the cable market)
5. Divert deployment resources to markets which have no real competition (the idea here is pick the low hanging fruit first). This left communities begging for real competition out to dry... guess what happens later when Verizon comes a-calling for a video franchise? You guessed right, problems.
6. Billing errors (there's a whole thread dedicated to this, I need not say more).

Of course hindsight is 20/20 and they were bound to make a few mistakes.. but the techs installing the product way back in 2003 knew the right way to market & compete against the cable companies.. but did management listen?

Not really, no.

Greed, Return on Investment and trying to prove that FTTP could be a success took priority over steady, sustained growth.

So, what did Verizon do? (already heavily leveraged with vodafone investment)
Pump 18+ billion into the wireless network (lte).
Just so they could say they have way to stop-loss some the millions of POTS phone lines being canceled every year.

btw, fti... don't get your news on telcos from newspapers & major media anymore, they are editorial shills for wall st. and/or large corporations.

See 6 replies to this post
curls310

join:2007-09-26
Hillsdale, NJ

Best service period

If you can get by the billing issues...

The Beer
I Love It When A Plan Comes Together
Premium
join:2001-07-24
Omaha, NE
clubs:

Can you quote yourself?

Can you use a quote of yourself from another article quoting you? Is that legal?

funchords
Robb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast

Re: Can you quote yourself?

said by The Beer See Profile :

Can you use a quote of yourself from another article quoting you? Is that legal?
You can, but you have to do so sparingly. Every time you quote yourself, or otherwise refer to yourself in the third person, you tear at the fabric of the space-time continuum and risk falling into an multidimensional fold.

It's why Bob Dole hasn't been seen for years.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
irsean

join:2001-05-10
Redlands, CA

Re: Can you quote yourself?